It is crucial for women to recognize the signs of clergy misconduct, as those who experience betrayal or emotional abuse often turn to their faith communities for solace and support. Here’s what you need to know.

If you relate to this, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.

Dave Gemmel, Associate Director of the NAD Ministerial Association, joins Anne Blythe, M.Ed. to discuss clergy misconduct. Congregants seek spiritual guidance, compassion, and leadership from clergy. When pastors, bishops, and other spiritual leaders use their authority to destroy a congregant’s trust or faith in God through misconduct, that sacred role is diminished, and victims may experience severe trauma, which often includes a crisis of faith.

Dave enumerates some of the ways that clergy can violate trust and commit misconduct:

• abuse
• adult sexual abuse
• harassment
• rape
• sexual assault
• sexualized verbal comments or visuals
• unwanted touches and advances
• use of sexualized materials including pornography
• stalking
• sexual abuse of youth or those without mental capacity to consent
• misuse of the pastoral/ministerial position
• Failing to protect a victim of abuse
• Can include criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities.

Understanding How Clergy Misconduct Happens

As Dave explains, pastors have spiritual authority, which makes it impossible for an “asymmetrical relationship” between himself and a congregant. Because of the lack of “considered mutual consent,” a sexual relationship with a pastor or bishop is not an affair, but abuse. Women who have experienced this form of abuse may blame themselves, but abuse is never the victim’s fault.

When clergy take advantage of their position of power, congregants may feel disloyal or unworthy if they report misconduct. Furthermore, congregants, especially abused women, may not know they have betrayal trauma. Utilizing women’s intuition helps prevent clergy misconduct. Because women have adept intuitive abilities to decipher safe or unsafe individuals, Dave suggests all religious organizations implement a 50% policy.

This means that in search committees, boards, and other leadership committees that determine who is leading a congregation, women make up at least half of the group. When women discover betrayal and identify abuse in their relationships, they often seek support from clergy. Dave recommends that women and couples do not seek therapeutic counseling from clergy.

Instead, women suffering from the effects of betrayal and abuse can utilize professionals who are trained in trauma and abuse.

Trained coaches lead the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. If you are seeking validation, empowerment, knowledge, and support, join the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group today and find the community you deserve.

Transcript: The Truth About Clergy Misconduct

Anne: Today, I’m with Dave Gemmel. He’s an associate director of the NAD ministerial association. He received his doctorate of ministry with an emphasis on multicultural leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary in 1992. He began pastoring in the San Francisco bay area in 1978. Welcome Dave.

Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne. It is a delight to be with you, and I love your mission. Betrayal Trauma Recovery aims to protect women from emotional abuse, psychological abuse, and coercion. We are on the same page.

Anne: Let’s just dive right in to talking about clergy misconduct. Many think it is only preying upon minors. Could you please define it?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a mouthful, isn’t it? Clergy misconduct, typically, we think of all the stories in the news, stories of the Catholic Church with pedophilia, abusing little boys in the church, and so that’s what comes to mind when we think of clergy misconduct, but the scope is actually a lot bigger than that. If I could just give a little preface here before we jump into it.

Clergy, many, if not most, have advanced education and have been carefully screened before endorsement by their congregations. Most are highly trained, behave with great integrity and professionalism. Having said all that, there is a segment of volunteers and professional clergy who violate sacred trust, and in doing so damage the reputation of all clergy.

That’s the segment that we’re going to zoom in on today. So what is clergy misconduct? It’s a betrayal of sacred trust, as I mentioned. And it can be on a continuum of abuse or gender directed behaviors by either a lay or clergy person with a ministerial relationship, whether they’re paid or unpaid.

The Scope Of Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: Here are some of the things it can include. Abuse, adult sexual abuse, harassment, rape, sexual assault, sexualized verbal comments or visuals and unwelcome touch and advances. The use of inappropriate materials. Including pornography, stalking, sexual abuse of youth, or those without capacity or consent. Also misuse of the pastoral ministerial position, and sometimes criminal behaviors that are against the law in some nations, states, and communities.

So that’s an official definition of misconduct by clergy. That’s in the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, which is one of the best out there.

Anne: So in your definition, you said gender directed behaviors. Are you talking about misogyny?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that absolutely is misogyny. And that is proclaiming that women are not as valuable as men. And men have the right to dictate women’s behavior.

Anne: Let’s talk about your contention that pastors can’t have affairs with church members. And why when people say, oh, he had an affair with a member of his congregation, that’s not a thing.

Pastor Dave: Sometimes when a spiritual leader had an inappropriate relationship with a member of the congregation, and we write it off as an affair, I don’t believe it’s an affair. Here’s why, the word affair implies mutual consent between two adults. But there’s an asymmetrical role between pastor and congregant. In other words, the pastor has spiritual authority, which does not put them on the same playing field. That’s why it’s asymmetrical.

So any intimate relationship between a pastor and a congregant, I believe, is clergy misconduct. and cannot be considered mutual consent.

Even if it’s not physical coercion, the clergy is the one in a position of spiritual and emotional power and must be held responsible for the abuse of power.

Therapists & Clergy: Positions Of Power

Pastor Dave: So, any relationship between a spiritual leader and a member is not having an affair. It is clergy misconduct.

Anne: Thank you for making that so clear. It’s the same type of thing, where can you have an affair with your therapist? And the answer is also no, because he’s in a position of power. His role is to treat you for a mental illness. I think that that would fall into the same category in terms of therapy or other professionals.

Pastor Dave: Absolutely, and a therapist should lose their license and be barred from practicing. It’s on a continuum, and the reality is there are some predators who’ve managed to become clergy. The biggest study was done, it’s from the Journal of Scientific Study of Religion, titled Prevalence of Clergy Advances Toward Adults in Their Congregations. It was a twofold study. Victims of clergy misconduct were studied from a wide range of religions.

They were asked to tell their stories of abuse. And in almost all these cases, the clergy offenders in a series of small acts broke down the natural defenses. And took advantage of a position of spiritual power to eventually make the relationship inappropriate. But what do we call that? That’s a predator. And somehow there are a few of these predators that have managed to get in among the ranks of spiritual leaders.

It’s so dangerous, and here’s why, because the victims, the families, and the congregation did not seem to notice it. Or they refuse to confront the clergy. So there’s this special fog in a congregation that people aren’t looking for that, and so they don’t see it. And it makes a nice cloaking place for these predators in the ministry.

Predators In Religious Authority

Anne: Would you say this also applies to people in some type of religious authority, even if it’s just volunteer, when they’re not their congregants? So, for example, a neighbor who thinks, oh, this man is amazing because he’s a pastor. He might not be her pastor, but some religious title. In my church, we would call it a priesthood calling.

So even if they don’t belong to their same congregation, do you find that these types of predators use their titles for grooming others, not just people in their congregation?

Pastor Dave: You know, predators use whatever tools they can and if they can use a spiritual position they’ll do whatever they can to achieve their goal.

Anne: I think it’s an automatic way to gain people’s trust. So what steps can churches take in the prevention of clergy misconduct?

Pastor Dave: A few things. First of all, make sure that at least 50% of your search committee, policy committees, or boards, or however your church or synagogue is set up, 50% need to be women. And here’s why. I believe God created man and woman, and they complete humanity. If you just have one gender, you only get half of the picture. And so if there are only men on these committees, you’re half blind!

Many times women can pick up on things that men were clueless to. So it’s imperative that there is a 50% at least on all these committees. Does that sound wild to you? That’s my goal.

Anne: I think it sounds amazing. In my particular faith, that is not even an option right now.

Gender Balance On Church Committees

Anne: I’m like, oh, that would be a miracle if a woman complained and said, Hey, this was creepy. So many men would just be like, Oh, he’s just a nice guy. Don’t worry about it. You’re overreacting. And so, having women make up 50% would make a huge difference, because men seem to dismiss women’s statements about factual things or their intuition that something isn’t quite right.

Pastor Dave: Because most of us men have not experienced unwanted advances. To us, it’s just completely off our radar. It’s something we can’t relate to. And many women have. So immediately they pick up on it. That’s why we need women in these decision-making positions.

Anne: I love that, I’m going to pray for that in my own faith.

Pastor Dave: When a congregation or group selects a spiritual leader, you gotta check references. You know, we do that in business, how much more important it is in spiritual life. Now, when I say check references, that’s not just checking the resume and making the cursory calls on the resume.

But it’s calling previous congregations and talking to people in previous congregations, others who have worked with them and dig and dig and dig. And if this person is a predator, things will pop up. It may not be obvious, but three or four phone calls and following some threads, it may be possible to uncover any clergy misconduct.

Anne: Let’s talk about how the position of clergy can be problematic for someone with an exploitative character.

Pastor Dave: This is the heart of our conversation right now.

Safe Practices For Congregants

Pastor Dave: This may sound radical, but let me say, don’t go to your pastor or bishop for counseling. That’s a no no. It’s dangerous to go to pastors or spiritual leaders for counseling. And here’s why. Formal training of pastors, and particularly lay leaders, does not equip them to engage in counseling. Counseling is full of supervised counseling that takes thousands of hours before you become certified. It takes certification by state and governing bodies.

Anne: So many victims go to clergy for spiritual counseling. What’s the difference between spiritual counseling and the counseling you’re talking about.

Pastor Dave: Yeah, that’s a good question. Spiritual counseling, I don’t think that’s appropriate. I think it’s much better in a support group to develop those spiritual skills and insights. As far as one-on-one counseling, I think that’s out of the question, whether spiritual or otherwise.

Anne: One thing I suggest is if you’re going into clergy to report your husband’s abuse, inappropriate content use or coercion. Or any type of abuse, emotional or psychological abuse.

Always take another woman with you who understands abuse. From our experience, you are at the greatest risk of him giving you bad advice. Or saying things like, well, just have more intercourse with him, or how many times do you have it? We get the craziest things clergy has said to victims of abuse. Are you making dinner? Are you praying? Stuff like that.

Pastor Dave: That’s a great suggestion, and that leads me to don’t meet with a pastor by yourself.

Anne: We’re on the same page, yay!

The Role Of Clergy In Counseling

Pastor Dave: We are. This is not rocket science here. This is just a simple practical device that comes out of years and years of bad practice and seeing examples of clergy misconduct. So we need to turn it around and have a good practice to ensure there is no clergy misconduct. So here’s some suggestions. Don’t meet with the pastor by yourself. If you do, find places to meet people where others can observed you.

Alright, so I don’t know if the pastor has an office. If so, the office door should be open, there should be someone within eyesight of the office. I would suggest that if there’s no office, meet at a public place. Coffee shop, ice cream shop, if we’re in Salt Lake City. Most of all, choose a place where you feel safe. And if you want to bring a friend with you, that will increase safety awareness.

Anne: Let’s talk about that for a minute. So, many women will go to clergy to be absolved of their own sins. They’re embarrassed, they don’t want anyone else to know. What would you tell women in this scenario who are ashamed of their own behavior?

They want to repent. And they’re thinking, I don’t wanna tell my mom, so my mom can’t come in with me to speak to my bishop or pastor, or perhaps some scenario like that. What advice would you give for women in that situation?

Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we’ll get into a theological discussion right now, because I’m not into that at all. As a pastor, I think that’s between them and the Lord.

Pastors & Congregants, Power Dynamics

Pastor Dave: If they want a support group, a group is a great place to do it. As a spiritual leader, I don’t want to look out at my congregation and know specifically what their sins are. I mean, that’s crazy.

Anne: That’s interesting. So that would be a theological difference, obviously, between yours and my faith. Because in my faith, you’re expected to confess serious sins, and that’s part of the repentance process. You also would get that in like the Catholic faith, confession. And there’s several other faiths who believe in that spiritual practice of confession.

Pastor Dave: Absolutely, again, this is theological. I don’t believe as a member of the clergy that I have any absolving power over sin. That’s something that is between God and the person. So that’s not a power that I believe I’ve been bequeathed with. But yeah, we could get into a theological discussion.

Anne: Yeah, I’m grateful for your insight. So thank you for sharing that. I’ve actually never considered that’s not clergy’s role before until right this second, talking to you. If you have anything else you want to add, I’m happy to hear it.

Pastor Dave: Yeah, well, we can have a Bible study sometime, take a look at it. That would be fun.

Anne: Yeah, that’s awesome. You’re opening my mind. Thank you, for the purposes of this podcast, let’s continue talking about the guidelines that can keep congregants safe.

Other Things To Prevent Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: A couple other things to prevent clergy misconduct, keep messaging professional. So whatever the messaging is, whether it’s a phone call, a text or an email. Look at that text, that messaging, make sure it is professional. That it doesn’t, well, you used the word creepy. And that there’s nothing in there that says this relationship is or could be something more than what it is already, a professional relationship.

And if it goes beyond that, the bell should be going off and say, Hey, there’s a problem here. So here are some things to do to prevent clergy misconduct from happening. If it’s email, reply back and CC some people, so they can see what’s going on. If it’s text messaging, increase it to a group message with some trusted people.

Phone calls, make sure you have someone in the room with you when you’re having that phone call, put it on speakerphone if you have to. So all these things will provide safety barriers from someone on the other end who may be, and you don’t know for sure, may be a predator.

Anne: I’m so grateful that you’re talking about this in such a candid way. Thank you so much. So for the purposes of this podcast, since my listeners are victims of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion from their husbands. Who often go into clergy. And in my particular faith, the clergy is volunteer. None of them are highly trained, but I have heard stories from all faiths, that often clergy doesn’t understand abuse and gives victims of abuse harmful counsel.

General Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: That may not be considered clergy misconduct, but it certainly is unprofessional and does not fit with the sacred trust of ministry. I would call it pastoral misconduct or clergy misconduct in general.

Anne: Yeah. So let’s talk about this. My podcast is interfaith. So I speak with women who are Catholic Baptist, Jewish, every denomination of every type of faith. Women report that these interactions with clergy are traumatizing. When they talk about their husband’s abuse. They receive responses like you need more intercourse, or you need to be a Biblical woman and submit.

So specifically to my listeners, when they’re not in the scenario of experiencing clergy misconduct. Meaning there’s no intimate relationship with clergy, but they are experiencing clergy misconduct in general. Because they get misinformation when they go for help.

Pastor Dave: I’m going to give just a really easy answer. Don’t go to your pastor for marital counseling. Honestly, I mean, I have my doctorate, and I do not consider I have enough education to do marriage counseling. And if I begin, I am outside my knowledge base, and I am bound to give some stupid advice. So, I’d rather not do that. And for your listeners, I would rather they don’t get stupid advice either.

If they’re going to someone who knows less than they do, I mean, what’s the point? That’s a waste of time. Go to someone who actually has competency in that area.

Anne: Women also report going to family or marriage counseling and having it go off the rails. And not keep them safe. So this isn’t just a clergy issue.

Understanding Emotional & Psychological Abuse

Anne: This is a serious societal issue about people not understanding emotional and psychological abuse, how to spot it, and how to help victims get to safety. Similarly, my advice to our listeners is don’t go to a marriage and family therapist because they are bound by their licensing to see it as an equal problem. With an abuse situation, you really need a professional who genuinely understands emotional and psychological abuse and coercion.

Because it’s not just a communication issue where you’re going to improve your communication, and things will get better. If you are wondering if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz.

Pastor Dave: And I would advise those in a position of spiritual power to work with groups such as yours that really have good skills in this area.

Anne: Yeah, that’s fantastic. So that’s what we specialize in. Emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, especially when it’s difficult for people to see it. Even victims themselves, when they’re not educated about it. It’s very difficult for them to even understand what’s going on. When we educate women about it, they’re like, Oh, now this is clear. So let’s go back to clergy misconduct.

If there’s anyone listening who has experienced this or is experiencing it currently. I’m sure there are many listeners whose husbands are pastors or clergy. Who know their husband had misconduct with one of the congregation members. This is the wife of the pastor, who is aware of her husband’s misconduct.

So I would say it’s more likely that someone is listening in this scenario. However, I’m sure there are also women who have experienced intimate misconduct themselves.

Advice For Victims Of Clergy Misconduct

Pastor Dave: And that number is not small. Referring to that previous study, over three percent of women in any congregation have experienced clergy misconduct. So it’s not a small group of people. And I’m imagining that maybe one of your listeners has experienced it, and they’ve listened to it. And they say, yeah, that’s me. What do I do about it?

I think the first thing you need to know is it’s not your fault. It’s a predator’s fault, not yours. You are a victim. You are a victim of clergy misconduct. So don’t feel guilty about it. And if you’re ready, and you have support, speak up. And then find people that can walk on that healing journey with you.

Anne: And what would you say to the many wives who know about their husband’s misconduct and who have not been removed from their positions?

Support For Wives

Anne: In fact, we have over 60,000 women in our community, and offer Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. We hear stories of this frequently where their husband uses inappropriate material, for example, or he’s had an affair, not necessarily with a member of the congregation, but with somebody. And he has shown he doesn’t have intimate integrity or integrity at all because he’s lied about it. What would you say to wives in that scenario?

Pastor Dave: If the evidence is clear, and you’re willing to take the risk, take that evidence to the person that’s overseeing your husband, and make clear your husband should not be holding that office.

Anne: Yeah, we’ve had lots of women who have done that and then they’ve just been dismissed. So that’s the thing that’s really difficult for women as they sometimes try and try and then it just gets exhausting.

Pastor Dave: It’s tough. You have to have a support team with you. To do it all on your own, and you’re being gaslighted just makes it more and more difficult. So you need that strength of a community behind you. Because every step you take, it gets ratcheted up on the other side. So you have to be strong. And to be strong, you’ve got to have people behind you. You’ve got to have a group of people that can listen to you, believe you, support you, and encourage you.

Anne: Well, I appreciate everything you’ve shared today about clergy misconduct, thank you so much for your time.

Pastor Dave: Thank you very much, Anne.